Outliers in Education from CEE

S.2, Ep. 2: Nick Brossoit's North Star

• Nick Brossoit • Season 2 • Episode 2

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Former long-time superintendent Nick Brossoit's advice is crystal clear - start with an unwavering love for and commitment to kids, and everything else will fall into place. In this deeply moving and insight-filled episode, we spend time with Nick as he stares down the end of his life and reflects back on his 33 years in education. 

In 2020, Nick was diagnosed with terminal cancer and at the time of this recording, having far outlived his doctors' prognoses, was at his home in Lynden, Wash., on end-of-life hospice care.

Nick has taken maximum advantage of his remaining time to write the book, "Love the People in Line" (2022) in which he shares the story of his cancer journey, his foundations in faith and his remarkable career in public education. 

This is an inspirational episode for any educator, listening to Nick's passion and focus on finding what's best for kids always and never bending to the influences of the politics that face all educational leaders.

You can find Nick's book and more about his journey at the selection of links below:

You can find out more about this podcast, the Outliers study and the Center for Educational Effectiveness at effectiveness.org. 

"Outliers in Education" is a project of CEE, The Center for Educational Effectiveness. Find out more at effectiveness.org.

Produced by Jamie Howell at Howell at the Moon Productions.

Eric Price:

Sometimes life takes a turn that brings everything into focus, the wisdom accumulated over a lifetime will meet the reality of what's truly important in the here. And now. Today we're going to explore that intersection with an incredibly special guest on this episode of "Outliers in Education." Hey, everybody, we're glad you're tuning into the podcast today. I'm Eric price here with my co host, Eric Bowles from the Center for educational effectiveness. We're all in for a truly special conversation today with longtime superintendent, leadership coach and author Nick brasen. Nick, as life happens has been battling pancreatic cancer since he was diagnosed with it in 2020. He has outlived doctors prognosis, and he has used that time to among other things, published his new book, Love the people in line, which came out a year ago in March. I mean, we're going to face our own mortality someday bowls. And I guess the question is, how do we how do we all deal with that?

Erich Bolz:

Well, EP, that really is a great question, indeed. And I've thought long and hard about how you know how I might respond. And I think all I can say is from afar, sort of watching Nick's journey through social media and and knowing Nick's reputation as an educator roughly at the same era, all I can say is, I'm incredibly inspired by the courage and by his willingness to use his time for the best in writing a book. And I think his approach to mortality, which most of us, if you're like me choose not to confront has just been inspiring to a lot of us.

Eric Price:

Nick, we are super glad to have you on the show today. How are you feeling?

Nick Brossoit:

Well, all right, I'm blessed to have good pain pills.

Eric Price:

Well, Nick, my own background, as you and I have spoken. When I was 19, I was given a at best 25% chance to live with a rare form of cancer. And as I began to look at my life going in, I remember there's a salient point that was frozen in my memory, I'm on a gurney, I'm getting ready to go into a surgery, I don't know if I'm going to make it out of, even if I make it out, I've got less than a one in four chance that I'm going to make it past that for more than a year. And I started to think what's really important. And for me, that focus just was laser like, like, it was relationships, and it was people. So when you now are at that similar kind of state, almost of knowing there's this calendar, what what things have come into focus for you in both personal life and maybe even your reflection in education?

Nick Brossoit:

Yeah, well, first of all, I'm glad that you beat the statistics, because you've done a lot in your career in your life, and the world is a better place for having you be in it for the time that you were, are and still are. I don't know, I think the relationships part for me has always been pretty important. So I don't feel like there's been a huge change in that other than to be maybe more present, I was assumed I had more time with some people. So to be more present with the people that I've been with. And even the extra time I've had now I think has been helpful. I'd already retired from education. So sort of felt like I left my best on the field prior to retiring. I'm glad I didn't have to practice through some of what educators have been through in recent years. I'm not sure I would have been as graceful as some of them have been in dealing, dealing with some of what they've had to deal with. Probably the most profound thing for me is I've always had a relationship with God. And even though I was in the public sector for 32 years, I was a Christian through all that as well. And I just, I wasn't one that you know, or buttons and funny hats and stuff to draw attention to it. I just tried to live what I feel God called all of us to do, which is to love Him and love others. So a lot of my book and the stories and the things that I tried to do through education was just bringing God's love and compassion to people who maybe don't have that or hadn't experienced that. And I was never worried about things being attributed inappropriately or incorrectly. I figured that's God's to sort out not mine. So I just tried to do my best with what was in front of me and all that.

Erich Bolz:

Nick, I think it's one thing to retire and I think it must be another thing altogether to we you know, we retire we reflect and then to be dealing with pancreatic cancer and knowing that you know your time is short has, as you reflected on your career have Have there been changes in perspective have have things that mattered more maybe come into clarity or focus.

Nick Brossoit:

You mean like looking back when I've done something different or maybe

Erich Bolz:

Not even looking back, you know, would you have done something different? I think that's I think that's a great point of clarification. I think my wonder is, you know, I think I know what was important in my career. But if I were diagnosed with a with a terminal illness and had a very short time to live, I think my perspective on what was really important, and maybe what was it might have changed somewhat. And I'm just wondering if you had any of those reflections?

Nick Brossoit:

No. And fact, probably, I would say, if there were things that I look back and wish I'd have done different, I would feel those are more of regrets than reflections. I don't regret any part of what I did in 32 years, my 22 as a superintendent, what have you, I just feel like I had my eye on the ball pretty much all that time. But what was important, I would get criticized sometimes for not participating in some of the adults meetings and things that people thought were so important, but my heart and I feel like God's already always steered me through my heart towards the work that was important. And I would rather I'd rather be on the phone for 20 minutes with a parent who was unhappy about some service she was or wasn't getting, then go to a meeting and listen to other people talk for 20 minutes and not Sandy's.

Eric Price:

Just as a point of clarification, you would have had more meetings, Nick.

Nick Brossoit:

And I really, what I really liked about being a superintendent is I could control how many at least I was responsible for and how long they were. Yeah, right.

Eric Price:

So Nick, you I've read your book, love the people in line, I think it's fantastic. Could you tell us a little bit about if some of the our listeners that might not know about it? Well,

Nick Brossoit:

I never really sought out to write a book. And people think that, in fact, my whole career, I've not really an ambitious person, I've just had opportunities and tried to make the best of them when I had them, and then more opportunities would show up. And so Okay, fine. I in fact, I never plan to be a superintendent either. couldn't even tell you what they did when I was in education. Now I know and I'm not sure if it is that interested. But the book itself was really kind of a journal. For me, I went through some pretty bumpy things in my childhood. And being a Christian and trying to reconcile how things like that can happen to people and how much of that is responsible for people doing things to people or, you know, just rainfalls and everybody, just random things. But so the book for me was kind of a journal. And I would work use that to work my way through stuff, and collect and capture stories of how other people, you know, God use them to breathe into my life and as use me to maybe impact others, through my career and through other things I've done. So the book was really kind of a collection of this stuff. And then I was asked to speak at a conference. I can't remember it was a year or two ago, and the person who put on the conference, he wanted to get to know me better. So after I spoke and everything, I said, Well, here's a manuscript of something that's kind of a collection of my thoughts. And none of it had any of the cancer journey in it. It was all before that. So I gave him that. And he came back after I got back from a Christmas break. And he said, Well, this needs to be a book. And I said, Well, I just don't really, by this time I had cancer, I said, I just don't really have the energy and the whatever to push that way again. So he said, No, I'll take care of that for you. So he went out. And he hired an editor who came in to my house and at would ask me questions to kind of fill in bits with the manuscript. And then we captured the whole cancer journey and the last part of the book, and reference people too, if they wanted to keep up with the story, they could switch over to LinkedIn where I have a profile, I guess, and I've sort of been using my LinkedIn platform as a way to update people, it's pretty easy. You know, you put in an entry and it sits there. And the last one had over 10,000 views. So there's, wow, somebody's looking at it. Yeah, we're taking the proceeds that come to us from the book, and we're sending them to Eagle's Nest, which is a mission for children in Guatemala, poor kids that are it's kind of a Christian based orphanage concept. My wife went there on a mission a couple years ago, and just felt like it was a really concentrated focus on people who need it the most, and who have the least and so I, you know, I'm, I'm not probably changing their revenue stream too much, but we're doing, we're doing something to make a difference there. And, and then I feel good, because I never really wanted to make any money off what God's done in my life. That just seems odd. So I like the fact that, you know, thanks to my retirement and social security stuff, we don't have to rely on the book to live. Yeah.

Eric Price:

When you reflect back on that, Nick, was there any big epiphanies when you did the process, I know writing bowls and I doing some of that writing? I think there's there's this process that we learn a lot anything that you learned from the Book and reflecting

Nick Brossoit:

Well, when I was in the hospital back in August of 2020, and they gave me the diagnosis and stuff. I was praying and I was asking God, what's going on? You know, I'm just been told I've got six months to a year to live in this advanced cancer that spread to my liver. I mean, not good news, medically. And pancreatic cancer is a different kind of cancer. It's got, scientifically some very aggressive tendencies and abilities to mutate and do all kinds of stuff. That's why it's so deadly. But anyway, I was praying and asked God, what's going on? He said, he said, Don't worry, the rest of your life here is secure, and your life and heaven is secure. And I wasn't trying to be a smartass, or anything, although my wife tells me I can do that without trying. I said to God, I said, Well, you know, how, how can I not worry about it? I mean, this is, this is a pretty different plan that I had for my retirement. He said, Just Just hang in there, basically, and share your story from a faith perspective. So my mission or my calling, whether it's the places I've been asked to speak, or this interview, and others, I've done the book, it's all it's all been about being obedient to God, asking me to share my experiences from a faith based perspective on this journey. For me, that's just kind of how I've lived. I'm glad that I've had a relationship with God. And he with me for since I can remember, and so I'm doing what I've been doing. And other people find inspiration from that. But there's nothing novel about what I'm doing now. It's just cancer. It could be it could be something else. And for most people hearing this podcast, it's going to be something at some point.

Erich Bolz:

We we talked about that in in pre production prep for certain, Nick. And so one of the things I want to ask about just shifting gears slightly is how would you describe your your leadership legacy? I mean, you are in two large districts as superintendent for more than two decades. Yeah.

Nick Brossoit:

Yeah, I look back at that statistically. And it is kind of the anomaly. And what's the best way for me to describe this? Well, let me let me answer that by sharing a hopefully entertaining, but I think insightful story that kind of separates me and how I did my work as a superintendent, as a leader, from other people. I was new out of the School of Education. I graduated from Plu. And I was looking for my first teaching job. And I had two or three other offers. So when I went into this interview, I was pretty confident I was going to be working somewhere. But I didn't know where yet. So I go into the for this interview for high school social studies position, and the principal and the assistant principal, call me into their office. And they say, Hey, Nick, you know, we just want to let you know, we're really interested in seeing you here. But there's a big issue with the school board, and they don't want to see a teacher be a coach. So you're gonna you're basically interviewing for a job where we were removing the teacher, because he didn't do a good job. And the conclusion was, it was because he was coaching. So if you get any questions in the interview about coaching, you know, be sure to be mindful that we're just hiring you as a teacher, we just want you to come in as a teacher. And I'm listening to him. And I'm, you know, my internal radar is just going crazy on so many levels. But I was there and I figured what the heck. So I went into the interview. And there's this table, big round table setting and probably 15 people there. And each person is taking a turn asking me a question. I'm doing pretty well, I, I'm answering the questions in a way that's consistent with what I believe and certainly consistent with best practice for teaching stuff. Then we get to this lady who looks like she hadn't had a bowel movement in a couple of months. And she says, Well, what do you think about teachers who coach, you know, and I could tell, this was this was that moment I had been, I had been warned.

Erich Bolz:

And I literally one right answer. Yeah.

Nick Brossoit:

And I looked at her and I said, Well, I think it's great, I think, I think, a good teacher, a good teacher and a good coach crossover in so many ways. And I just think it's awesome. And the influences you can have on young people in both the classroom athletic field is one you shouldn't miss. And then she looked, she looked like something actually had moved by that time. So she, she comes back and she says, she says, Well, what would you do if you're offered a job just as a teacher and not as a coach? And I was pissed by now, but I'm not. Not in a rude way. But I said looked right at her and said, Well, I would probably volunteer. We went through the rest of the interview a bit everybody farewell and surprise, surprise, I didn't get offered that job. But here's how it's relevant to the question you asked. And I gotta be careful both the principal and the assistant principal, who were in that high school who had basically swallowed the pill. The board has given him about what we're going to do, we're not going to do and I understand all that like I can tell you stories about all that stuff, too. Both of them went on to be superintendents in the state, neither of which lasted very long. And the reason and the opposite with why I think I lasted long is my North Star was doing what's best for kids always didn't matter if it was gonna get me in trouble or not. In their instance, at a pretty early place in their career, they were already bending to the influences of the politics of the position. Well, as soon as you soon as you kiss a pig, in this business, other livestock will line up. So you, so unless you enjoy that or think you're gonna somehow outsmart the audience that wants to use your authority to accomplish their will, which is most of who approaches you, then you better then you better stand for something more substantial. And my North Star was always what was best for students and learning. I have another story I could share if you want to hear about that. But I don't want to bore you with those.

Erich Bolz:

You didn't bore us with the first one. I get Yeah, that's another livestock one roll right into that. Let's, let's hear one more story.

Nick Brossoit:

This is that dynamic between the superintendent and their board, which, you know, for a lot of people is a pretty hard position to be in, because in fact, you like your job and you want to be in the position to do the work. But you know, how far are you gonna go and at what price? So, this I actually was in the Tumwater school district and have fond memories of both tomato and Edmonds. Tomato is about 6000 students and Edmonds has over 20,000 in cash. There's lots of discussions you can have about the size of a district and what comes with that. But anyway, I was sitting at my desk in my office one day, and the board president comes in wonderful man, great man. He also was an UnderSheriff for, I think, Thurston County, or Lewis County. So he was in uniform with his gun and his holster in the whole thing. And he was the board president that year that was going to do my evaluation. And he comes in my office and he stands in this one spot, and he says, you know, that teacher walkout that's coming in a couple of weeks? Well, I expect you to run school in the district on time and on schedule, and to not close your council school. He didn't ask me any he didn't ask me anything. He just delivered the the edict. And I'd only been in the job for four or five years. And again, I liked it. So I thought about it and prayed about it and continued to do my due diligence, I, we, you know, we've met with all the unions, and we've we concluded we couldn't safely run school that day. And if we did, we were going to have pissy relationships with everybody for years. And there just wasn't an upside. If somehow it miraculously snowed on that day, we'd simply make it up at the end of the year, and life would go on. So I never had a board meeting, never brought it up at a board meeting didn't do a special session didn't bring the board together in an Executive Session, because this was a really good man. And he'd got sideways really fast with the other board members. And he got sideways with administrators and with the unions and with the community, because it would have been a explosion over that issue. A lot of people felt like he did, just flat out didn't want to see it happen. A lot of people were very supportive of the symbolism of what the teachers were doing. But we weren't going to change any of that we weren't going to change gravity or do anything if we to, if we'd have done that. So anyway, the day came, I put it in my weekly notes to the board before it happened. I just said, Look, I've looked at all this stuff. You guys are paying me to make some of these tough decisions. And my decision is we're not going to have school on that day. Do you have any questions? Call me, sorry, you know, on to the next thing. So a board meeting came and went, nobody came and spoke. He never said anything. It's now two weeks after the decision. He comes back to my office and he stands at the same exact spot. In my office. He's wearing his uniform, and he's got his gun. Hopefully it's still under the flap, but he's got his gun on it. And I'm nervous. I'm not that confident. I'm not even 40 yet. And he says, Nick, you remember, you know, about four weeks when I stood right here. And I told you, I expected you to run school at De nada. And I said, Yeah, remember? He says, Well, you didn't you didn't listen to me and you ran school. And I just want you to know we hired the right superintendent. Wow. Wow. And it doesn't always fall that way. And if you were one of the people that I consult or advise, I might have given a different directions on how to handle that safer. But by doing it the way I did it, a tree never fell in the forest. He never got hurt. The board didn't get hurt. We didn't have all the drama. I just took it all myself. And so I think that's, you know, you asked me what's the difference in my leadership versus other people. Not everybody. I'm sure there's lots of great superintendents. But one I didn't bend to politics. I did do what was best for students and learning in the district in spite of the politics. And then when it came to my own employment, I again put the district and the kids interest better ahead of my own. And so, I don't know people may be kinda kinda like that. We're in a conversation one time at a school board meeting, and I was in trouble for something I know what it was, I was choosing to feed kids who'd come to school and they didn't have any money. I even got a shroud me for that and all ripped up by one of the TV stations because I was essentially feeding kids that were hungry, and figured we just work out the finances with their parents later. So we had some people come in, and they were not many, but a few were upset at the board meeting was to why we would feed their kids when they wouldn't send them was to school of food or money. And I had to do it lots of editing when I was sitting there, listen to that. But after all that was over and all the plates stuff was over, one of my board members leaned over to me and she just said, Nick, thanks for feeding our kids. So I was blessed with school boards that kind of let me go and supported me to do what was best for kids in the district. And they knew I wasn't going to cut deals on the way and that I would go down if ever had to go down, do what was right for kids. So those kinds of things make a difference. And now I see. I see stuff that goes on and some of those dynamics and some of the people that call me and say what buttons should I push I'm I'm saddened by the expectations, and the lack of support that a lot of superintendents are dealing with, frankly, I've even heard stories about some superintendents now that if I wasn't died of cancer, I'd probably have a contract. But I would, I would not stand for for what some of these guys are doing. I call him out on it.

Eric Price:

We're gonna take a short break, and we'll be right back to talk more with Nick brasen on this very special episode of outliers in education.

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Eric Price:

We're back. And we continue to be grateful for the chance to have this conversation with former superintendent author and all around inspirational guy Nick bras it Nikki, you said you had a bumpy childhood and reading your childhood story in the book. I think that is a nice way to put it. What would you say now to both principals and to soups? How do we best deal with kids that are dealing with incredibly hard things at home just like the story about the lunch? What's the proper response from from us as leaders?

Nick Brossoit:

Okay, you start out with this unwavering unconditional love for kids. What's best for the kids individually, the training that you do for your staff about how to catch and appropriately refer and support those kids that are at risk you start there. Everything else is just the bureaucracy figuring out the how part and you organize all the adults and every all the bureaucracy and all the contracts and all the people that have got to agree to get in line with that. And that's where a lot of the heavy lifting comes. But you don't waver on that. You just stick to it. And eventually, the adults will adjust. You know, I get rambley here because I'm on some pretty heavy drugs. I apologize for that.

Eric Price:

That's okay. Boz and I are to with no real reason. Yeah, but

Nick Brossoit:

I'm legal. So, so you know, braces work. If you've ever had orthodontia work though the bar or the wire is a constant. The individual bands that are attached to each tooth, simply are causing that tooth to have to move towards the constant. There's a great picture great imagery of leadership. You hold the bar, you hold a constant expectation for we're going to do what's best for kids and the how part is us figuring out how each little part of the system that tooth has to rotate and move. We're not going to change the bar You know, we're gonna do what is in the best interest of kids in their present situation and in their life and in their future. And then we're going to figure out over time, how do we get those teeth to move the lineup in those systems. It's so cool, because there's so much of a holding force to that aligned practice of what's best for kids. And let's figure it out as adults, that they are hard to change. Even if you get some goofy person in a leadership role later. It's hard to screw those places. It's been done, I've seen it happen. But it's, it's harder. So you want to practice those things that are best for students and learning. And you got to have, you got to have a superintendent and a board that's willing to deal with a little bit of a storm, and understand it's connected to something more important, which goes back to the kids. I never, I never had somebody come to a board meeting, and accuse me of doing something that was harmful to kids, or credit criticize me for our motives and our intentions. I have gotten to board meetings when we were closing schools, as unpopular as that is, and we had nobody protest. Because because I was on my feet for two hours in that school community before the board meeting, answering every question and addressing every issue that they had. And I told people in one school, I'll be the last one to leave the library. And I was I would stay there and I would talk face to face and listen honestly, with people about what we're doing and why. And I didn't hide behind layers. And I didn't send it out in a memo. And I didn't hide behind the board. The board looked at me in one of these meetings that where's everybody out? You know, they have to have a public hearing to close the school. And I said, Well, I can get them here if you want. But But if the goal is just to close the school list, we just processed it with people directly. The cool part is I had a the president of that particular PTA ended up volunteering to be our citizen lead on all of our levies and bonds. After we close the school, I mean, these are good people and and really most people are well intended. I see a lot of the drama, I see a lot of the drama, of people standing out in front of the school district with their signs all riled up about stuff. How come the superintendent wasn't out there talking to him before the cameras showed up? And why did they have to? Why did they have to beat so hard on the door, to get the attention of the system to address an issue that was already there? That's the stuff you know, and maybe it is cancer or age or drugs or something. But that's the stuff I look at now. And I think I don't get it. I don't understand, you know, you got people that are in a leadership position, but they're hiding, and they're not standing up and saying it out for kids. And well, I don't think I'd be happy if I was in their district either. Keep firing I like I like your questions.

Erich Bolz:

Yeah, we want to kind of stay in this leadership vein, but you know, thinking about your career through the lens of reflection, and we probably have some things in common I, I think if I look back at my career, it's not a regret. But I started awfully young as a principal I was principal last century at 31 years of age, which I think is frankly too young. If I could talk to my younger self, I would say a teacher while you were good at it, be a principal, a 35 be a principal, a 37. When we think about people who are in their 30s and 40s. Right now thinking about moving out of the classroom or thinking about moving from maybe the principalship to a central office position. What advice would you have for those folks in general?

Nick Brossoit:

Well, it really varies per person. I mean, I liked what you said, where you could have done that job longer. But sometimes the opportunity is there. And the opportunity needs you before you're ready for the opportunity. I wasn't like I say I wasn't ambitious, I didn't plan it. I didn't set out to be a superintendent. It wasn't my vision for my life to be a school superintendent, I do think you have to think about where you're at in your life, your family is got to be a main consideration, because that kind of a career change puts a lot of pressure on them to deal with you who's dealing with a new situation. You know, they say you shouldn't do a new job and get into a doctoral program at the same time, because it's too much. Probably true, you know, but I sold the house was having kids change jobs and did a doctoral program all at the same time. And, you know, I lived to tell about it. So people have people have different degrees of capacity for that kind of stuff. But talk to people who've made the change, you know, do your research, investigate that move with other people where you're going and who you're going to be working with make a difference. So there's lots of stuff there that you can cultivate, as you lead up to making that choice.

Eric Price:

Nick, we live in this era of communicating, posting, speaking, and I think we have lost some of that great art of listening. And I just heard you referenced that with the people at the school that were closing and you know, in in reference to the drama as well. So two parts to this question. Why is listening so important? And why do we not do it so much holistically in Educational Leadership?

Nick Brossoit:

Well, great questions. And I need to share a little bit of a story, I guess, leading up to my answer. So are we okay, on time it has

Eric Price:

Does it have to do with livestock? No.

Nick Brossoit:

You're safe. There's a, there's, I don't know if they're still in business or not. But there's a place called the Annenberg Institute, they did a study, many years ago, they were trying to figure out and prove the premise, that scene is believing that if you give people facts and information about stuff, they're more likely to do the right thing and change their opinions and change their actions. So they took as a test, they would take people and they put them in one of those audiology booths, where they can actually cut off any sound, or might, they had a microphone in there, and they would put a red apple on the table in this booth. And they put people in there. And they'd say, before they went in, we're gonna put you in a booth where there's no light, do you think you'll be able to see the apple? And most people said, yes. But they put a high school student in there. And they said, you know, you can talk to us through the microphone, and we're going to have you in this room where there's no light, but there'll be a red apple on the table. Do you think you'll be able to see it? She said, Yeah. They said, why? Well, I think my eyes will adjust, and I'll be able to see it. Okay, here we go. They put her in the room, close it off, make sure she's safe and comfortable. Because she can talk to them and stuff. She's in there for about 15 or 20 minutes. And they say, How's it going? She says it's going fine. Can you see the apple? No, just give it a little more time. So now we're up to like, 3035 minutes, same question, same answer. So now she's in there for like 45 minutes. Would you like to come out? She says, yeah, she comes out in her eyes adjust and stuff. They say, Did you see the apple? She said no. But if I just stayed in there a little longer, I think I would have. Okay, what they concluded in that study is that people have a belief system, they already think a certain way based on life experiences, what they've been taught, indoctrinated into. I mean, the list of things that influences who we are at any place in our life is long. But their conclusion is that people then interpret objective data in a way that's consistent with their opinion, the way they see things. Yeah, so for this person, and for a lot of people, what they believe, is more controlling than what they see or experience in the moment. Because they have a lot of allegiance to that belief system it's been developing over the years. And what they found is the only way and this gets back to your question, why is deep listening and important? Well, they found that the only way that you can change somebody's opinion, is to go back and listen deeply to understand why is it you believe the moon is the center of the universe? Or why is it that you believe you'll see that red apple when all the science and evidence that you won't? And once they're there, and they explained to her how photons work and how the AI works, and, you know, literally got into the science of it? She said, Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I can see, I can see what you're saying, and why you shouldn't be able to see that apple, but I still think I would be able to. And this is somebody who is 18 years old, and we're talking about seeing a red apple in a room with no light now enter the complexities of adults who may or may not make a living on their belief system who may or may not have all kinds of social anchors that they've dropped on Facebook, or what are their other social media bomb locations you can go off on. And they're highly invested and associated with a certain belief system, certain opinions. This is why our political system is so screwy, people are heavily invested on their beliefs extreme right or left. They want to pontificate to try to convince other people to believe the way that they believe. So they're relentless in sharing their views, they see as listening as a sign of weakness, or it's only to be done to get leverage on your opponent. I mean, this is the art of war stuff we're doing now, in our discourse in our country, we've lost that common sense. I'm not sure anybody's got the penny in their pocket anymore. It's really sad. You guys are gonna have to live through another president election, president election campaign in our country. I'm not. That's one of the one of the silver linings of my situation. But, but it really is troubling to see so many people who they don't even fully understand why there's why they're standing for what they stand for. So the deep listening to me is a cure for that.

Eric Price:

So Nick, you've had a lifetime of experience in listening any other stories in education that you think we should hear that would help leaders see things or lead better?

Nick Brossoit:

Yeah, I'm going to share When it's actually in the book, so I apologize if it's not original for this interview, but I like it on a bunch of different levels. I was an assistant principal at Burlington Edison High School, and a mother was coming in because her son, and was suspended for fighting with another student. And both of them got the same consequence. And then she came in, just live it. She was yelling and cussing and waving her fists in the air, my Secretary asked if we should call the police. And I said, No, you know, you might leave the door cracked open or something. But she was, I mean, I've seen upset people before, this was like cartoon mad, just super angry. And she was going off about how I was just out to get her son, and we didn't care about him. And we were all trying to get her and get them. And it was just caustic. Now, the normal response, and I was starting to go through my head was, you know, administratively, you know, acknowledging that I heard her and talking about rules and safety and all the things in support of why the school did what it did. But instead, and this is the part that's maybe unique, I prayed. I know, you're not supposed to pray in school. But I was in my head for 30 seconds. And I was listening to her go off on me. And so rather than respond, I just prayed, I said, God, what's really going on here? Give me some insight, some clarity about how to respond and what to say and what to do. And she stopped, she was winding down, and she said, Well, are you gonna say anything? And I looked at her and I said, what was on my heart, and God put it on my mind. I said this, I said, you really love your son. And you're afraid that decisions that he's making could hurt himself or other people. And you're scared and you don't know for sure what to do. She's She sat down, her shoulders relaxed, the yelling, and the screaming stopped, and she was sobbing, just sobbing. And I sat down to and I just was quiet. And we ended up having this great conversation for about 35 minutes on what she could do and what we could do to support her son in a constructive way. And it worked out great. Oddly enough. I saw this young man years, many years later in the airport at SeaTac. He was waiting for a flight. I didn't go over and say anything to him or introduce myself didn't ever want to make anybody feel awkward. You know, after I danced with him in my career. But he looked like he was doing okay. I mean, he wasn't he didn't have a sight out like he was collecting for dinner. He must have made it okay. I guess my point with that is just simply, I feel especially if you're somebody of a person of faith, just take the time, push Parker ego for a minute, take the time to ask the question, God, what would you have me learn? Or what would you want me to do in this situation, and then, and then go with it. And also, if you're in a leadership position, don't be cavalier about it. But have some spine have some backbone to stand up and do what's best for kids and learning? Because that's not selfish. And I've seen people who had this courage, but they didn't have the wisdom or they didn't have an index to a North Star. They just got in fights all the time over stuff that wasn't worth five, no eight

Eric Price:

Biden ears off of everybody and kissing all kinds of pigs. Yeah.

Nick Brossoit:

You don't need to do that all the time. Yeah.

Eric Price:

Nick. Thank you. I think that there are so many more things that we could delve into. This is the time of the show that we're going to flip it over to bowls, and he's going to summarize for us in his masterful way. Bowls. What do you have? For a nutshell for us?

Erich Bolz:

I've got the whole nut in the nutshell. So So bottom line, this, this podcast was really born out of our positive outlier study, which is, which is a fantastic read. And one of the things that was consistent in this study was kids in schools where we see schools essentially over performing their demographics really have access to high quality administrators. And I think, being able to talk to Nick today, there's no question that he would have set that tone up and down the organization. First thing I took away is be more present. And I think we all struggle with living in the moment and there can't be enough people in our lives to remind us that presence is important. I think almost all of us went into education, regardless of our faith background, because, you know, we ultimately love other people, we love children, we want to bring compassion to people, which is something Nick said over and over again, I love the fact that he has only reflections about his career and no regrets. Because regrets, frankly, are fairly, fairly wasted emotions, not not to be confused with what we can learn from the things that we maybe did that were mistakes, but no regrets. I like what he said about not being ambitious and making the most of opportunities that really resonated with me on a personal level, because I don't think anybody at five or six says, you know, I'm going to be an assistant superintendent on the curriculum side of a very large school system. So that that resonated with me 10,000 views on LinkedIn on his last post as he continues to chronicle his cancer journey on that format, just just just the impact that that's making hugely resonant, the proceeds of his book go into Eagle's Nest an orphanage in Guatemala, again, I'm making a lot of personal connections here because I spent quite a bit of time in, in Guatemala and the level of poverty there. If you've never been, it's just just a different thing than I've seen anywhere else in the world. I love the fact that he said stand for something really just the just the whole notion of leadership. Courage is kind of a through line in everything you said. The braces analogy, really standing for something, having that firm bar, and then letting the bureaucracy figure out the How I love that line. Just wanted to call that out. Because it really is, the bureaucracy really is noise. And if we use the bureaucracy to change contexts that people work in and learn in, we know that makes a huge difference. And that's part of Chuck, Selene and Suzanne Curtis framework in their fine, fine work in power is too powerful, you can hear more about them. And on Episode 10, of outliers in education. If you haven't listened to that particular podcast already, a couple of great stories toward the end, I'm gonna write down and play someplace that changing people's beliefs can only happen through deep listening, because I think, I think there are countless examples of when I've erred on the side of boy, it just seems like this is such a basic right thing I'm going to I'm going to share with you why your why your opinion isn't right. And that deep listening is important. And that's some great neurophysiology in one of the last stories, when he talks about, you know, basically just pausing for 30 seconds and praying, while we know the difference in neurologically between a reaction and a response is somewhere between 30 and 90 seconds. So, you know, boy, it's, you know, when your faith in your neurological evidence align your team seems like you make really, really good decisions. So I took that away as well. I think the word that really just comes to mind for me, if I had to pick one word is purpose. I mean, I just hear Nick live in this purposeful life. And I'm really inspired that Nick is choosing to make an impact, you know, until he takes his last breath. And I'm going to think a lot about, you know, am I living my purpose as a result of having had the opportunity to be engaged in this conversation? So can't thank you enough for being on the show. Nick, we always like to give our guests the opportunity to say, Eric, that was a pretty nice summary, but you really missed the gist. And if there's anything you feel like you'd like to share, please do. And thank you again.

Eric Price:

How do we do Nick? Did

Nick Brossoit:

we miss anything? I'm humbled and honored to have been invited. And I appreciate the opportunity. know if this is just one of those experiences where I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. So thanks for helping me do that.

Erich Bolz:

Wow. Our pleasure.

Eric Price:

Well, thanks for allowing us to listen to that. I think we all learned something. And I think it is also so hugely helpful, Nick, to know that no matter where we are, there is a number circled on that calendar for all of us. And for us to live a life in a way that we would look back and go Yeah, I absolutely think that's the right way to live. So thank you for that opportunity for us to listen to your perspectives on that and for us to reflect as well. Thank you, Nick. Great, thank you.

Erich Bolz:

Thanks to all of you for joining us today on outliers in education. You can find this episode and more anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast, or visit us online@effectiveness.org. Until next time, this has been outliers and education.

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People on this episode

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Eric Price

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Erich Bolz

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