S.2, Ep. 3: Coach Jim Johnson and the Power of Inclusion

Coach Jim Johnson rose into the national spotlight back in 2006 when he allowed Jason "J-Mac" McElwain, a young high school basketball student-manager on the autism spectrum, to suit up and get in the game. What happened next is the stuff of legend. Today, Coach Johnson is a nationally recognized expert on teamwork and leadership, a sought after motivational speaker and author of the book, "A Coach and a Miracle." In this episode, Coach Johnson shares leadership gems that apply far beyond any high school basketball court - about mentorship, teaching, teamwork and more. As his motto reads, "Think bigger, lead better, win more!"

Hot Links!
- Watch the J-Mac Story here
- Coach Jim Johnson Official Website
- "A Coach and a Miracle" by Coach Jim Johnson

"Outliers in Education" is a project of CEE, The Center for Educational Effectiveness. Find out more at effectiveness.org.

Produced by Jamie Howell at Howell at the Moon Productions.

Transcript

AD VO: 0:00

Outliers in Education is brought to you by C E, the Center for educational effectiveness, better data, better decisions, better schools to find out more visit effectiveness.org.

Eric Price: 0:14

Ever heard the story of J Mac? It's a basketball tale for the ages. But even more importantly, it's a story about the power of teachers and mentors have to help young people realize their dreams. We're taking it to the hoop with Coach Jim Johnson today on Outliers in Education.

AD VO: 0:31

I think we really need to change how we look at what we do in schools, Everything that we do as educators, it just comes back to people I love it even when it's hard, especially when it's hard.

Eric Price: 0:43

Ultimately, I mean, this is about what's best for kids. Eric Bryce here with my longtime teammate, Eric Bowles, from the Center for educational effectiveness. Welcome to another episode of outliers in education, where we've been pinching ourselves lately over the incredible guests we've been fortunate to have on the show. ballsy. I understand you had an illustrious high school basketball career. Do you remember the story of Jay Mac?

Erich Bolz: 1:08

Well, one of those two things is true EP I absolutely remember the story of J-Mac in terms of my illustrious high school basketball career. That'd be a really, really short conversation on our website, for those of you who are listening right now, so gotta do a little poor podcasting. I do have an image from 1985, the fall of my senior year where it's appropriate because I'm in my warmup, which is how I spent most of the years it turns out the running through the GMAC story, it's been really well chronicled. I first learned of it overseeing special education in my last post is Assistant Superintendent Pasco school district. And it's really been a force for inclusion inclusivity in the special ed community. And then as it turns out, everybody knows the story, that incredible gift by a coach to a loyal team manager who comes in, lights him up for 20 in the one game that he plays, and then you know, make a long story short, he beats out Kobe Bryant to Jay Mac beat up Kobe Bryant for the SP. So the bottom line is ESPN and everybody else's chronicle this a whole lot better than we can. And Coach Johnson is a forerunner in knowing so many things about leadership ahead of where I think my basketball coaches were in 1985. And we're really excited to get into that story. So I can't wait to interview Coach Johnson. It's gonna be an amazing conversation today. Well,

Eric Price: 2:23

it is our great good fortune to have the man who made that call with us here today. Coach Jim Johnson developed a winning high school basketball teams for over 30 years, and his life really hit the spotlight after that day that you're referencing bowls on the court with Jay Mac. today. He's a motivational speaker and a recognized authority on the subject of realizing your dreams. Coach Johnson, really happy to have you. Welcome to the show.

Coach Jim Johnson: 2:47

Thank you EP and Bolzie. So looking forward to our conversation.

Eric Price: 2:51

Well, I'm sure it's safe to say the back in the day in 2006. It made quite a bit of a difference in the trajectory of your life. But but that just wasn't an everyday call for you. What led you kind of to that point of allowing J Mac that kind of opportunity in that game?

Coach Jim Johnson: 3:06

Well, one of the things I always talk to young people about is that, you know, when you make a commitment, and you serve first, it'll come back to you. And just to give you a little background, a Jason, Jason came into our program. He was a little guy. He was like five 690 pounds soaking wet as a sophomore in high school. He tried out for the JV team, I was the varsity coach and our JV coach came to me. After a few days of tryouts. He says, Coach, we got a young man. He's on the autism spectrum at that point that was 2003. So we didn't know a lot about autism. And he said, But no, he can't play a lick. He's got a he's got a big heart. And he loves basketball. He loves the players. I think we should keep in the program. So what do you got in mind? He says, I'm going to offer him the team manager's job but I'm a little practice with the team every day and that's what he did. And, you know, I I started to get to know him because he would not only go to the JV game, but the varsity game normally was right after that. So he would stay on the bench and stay for the varsity game. So I just got started to get to know Him. In fact, I take him the nickname Jake make because I couldn't pronounce his last name. Fortunately, he liked the nickname and it stuck. And it's funny because half the school didn't know his real name. They just know him as J Mac. So what the other thing that was amazing though, is you know, after sophomore year, he came to our all our offseason workouts we you know, we put a lot of commitments on our players, because we wanted to be really good and he came to everything. And you know, he still wasn't very good. But man, this kid, he just I started I started picking him up at his house and, and he just loved basketball. He would always be you know, because I love basketball too. So we'd share basketball stories and so he comes out for the team as a junior and he doesn't make it but he serves as my team manager. And ironically, we had never won our section five championship i At that point, I've been a fairly successful coach, if you want to go wins and losses, we have many teams, but we were never winning our sectional term, we in fact, we lost five times in the sectional semifinal going into Jason's Jr. So he adopts his mind trader first BD says, Coach, we know you've never won a section five champion says, Thanks, Jason, for the reminder, I appreciate it. He says, but we're going to adopt the slogan this year, we're going to stay focused, and we're going to help you win your first sexified championship. So he said look great. So we hit a good season ago, we got to the semi finals now for the sixth time in my career, and we lose at the buzzer to our crosstown rival. So we're devastated. But it never deterred GMAC again, he came to all our offseason workouts, try it out his senior year. And still, our program was strong, and he had grown. He's like up to five, nine, maybe 110 pounds. So he's still quite small in stature. And so when I bring them in during trials and said, Jason, unfortunately, you're not quite good enough to make the team and I want you to serve as manager. But you've been so committed to our program. And I think this is a great life lesson for all of us is that when you show that you will give first and that Jason would always give he was always the first one on practice. He would do anything for the kids. He brings snacks to practice, he do all kinds of stuff. And so I said, I'm gonna give you a gift. And he goes, what do you got in mind coach, this is for senior day. He goes, I'm a senior I go, I know. I'm going to give you uniform and hopefully get you into the game. And he hadn't suited up to this point. It never he had actually suited up for one JV game. But he had never been in a varsity game as well. So it's senior night. It's always a special night. We recognize all our seniors before the game and and so I really wanted to get him in but I wasn't sure my whole goal is I thought if I could get him in with enough time so he could score Basque I thought Davidson memory wheelchairs Rush was like, so I wanted to get him in with enough time. So instead of just making a cameo, so I decided with just over four minutes to go. I'm gonna just let him play the game. So he comes in. And the crazy thing is, is I'm usually a pretty macho guy, and normally don't call it cry basketball. But what happened was when he entered the court, one of our parents, he was kind of our unofficial photographer. He had given all these pictures, he turned them into placards, he put them on paint sticks, and he gave the student body with a good student body falling, they call themselves a six man. And he told the student body if the if J neck gets in the game showed all these pictures. So Jason, I had no idea this happened. So when he enters the Corps for the first time, they give him a standing ovation and they show all these pictures. And I still to this day get choked up. I was like, oh my god, I can't believe all their greed, you know? So I sit down in tears. My sisters go to you okay, I go. I just can't believe how they greeted him like that. So he gets to the game. First time we have the wall. Our one of our team team members throws him the ball in the right corner. He's got a three point shot in the crowd kindness, deeds, anticipation. It misses by like six feet. It's not even close. And you guys be in in public schools. You know, you're not supposed to pray in the public school, but I was praying. Please, God, please help him release hit the roof. So the night next possession, he gets a short shot for about 10 feet and this time it hits the backboard and hits the rim and falls off. I pick it alright, God started to listen. And so the third possession, he gets another three point or this time for the right way. He lets it go magic. It goes in the place just explodes. And I'm thinking to myself, God must be a basketball fan. He's got a three point or a kicker. And then as you guys mentioned about Kobe, Kobe was his idol. And it for the next three minutes he literally turned into Kobe and he started making shot after shot in the places going crazier crazier. And the other thing that a lot of people don't know is he made six three pointers. But his seventh basket his foot was on the line. He literally is two inches from seven three pointers, which would have broken the school record at the

Eric Price: 9:28

toe. Wow, crazy.

Erich Bolz: 9:31

The other team playing soccer was this just a transformational moment?

Coach Jim Johnson: 9:35

You know what it was a combination. I mean, they were like all over him. But you know, is a lot of people brought up it's not easy to make six three pointers if you're standing by yourself. Yeah, exactly. So they were guarded, but they weren't like trying to black

Eric Price: 9:48

shatter anything. And then I know kind of the deal of Jamie. I talked to the

Coach Jim Johnson: 9:53

coach because we had played them earlier in the year and he was all for it. Everybody in the Elite League knew Jason so it was So, so I, but I do gotta take you through the end of the game because it was literally out of Hollywood. So he has scored all these baskets in the in the last possession spencerport I do want to give kudos to their team, their coach. They were really gracious that night, but they score with about 10 seconds ago. So our player takes a lot of bounce and normally you throw to a point guard Jason I kid him still this day because I still see him all the time is Jay Mac, I'm still looking for your first assists. He never passed the ball why?

Erich Bolz: 10:30

I can relate to that code.

Coach Jim Johnson: 10:33

But this last possession is a little different because instead of him throwing to a point guard at source, right, TJ Maxx or TJ Maxx like dribbling down the court. I see the clock ticking. And I thought they're just gonna let him go in and he'd shoot like a layup and the game. Oh no, he pulls up like two feet behind the arc. It's almost the NBA three. Don't shoot for there. They're gonna hold the moment. He watches this rainbow swish. The ball goes through as the buzzer goes off. I look over our student body runs on the floor our players run the only thing I can think of is Oh my god. I've lived in the movie Rudy. But this is their point. I had no idea when he points he has in our players put them up on their shoulder. He's got the gable overhead and our public address announcer comes out and says the lead scorer for the Trojans. Tonight GMAC with 20 points. That is an awesome. Like, I think of my math brain because he literally played a half a quarter if he'd played the whole game, he scored 106 There's so many life lessons about share one last thing, and then I'm open to any questions. Yeah, but uh, is that the greatest thing we had, I wrote a book about a call to coach and a miracle. And that season was the most unique season I ever had. Because I nearly resigned early season, we had a lot of issues that I don't want to delve into too deeply. I did share about it in the book. And then the team finally came around. And you talked about the essence of teamwork. I had never asked the four players on the on the court to pass on the wall yet they decided on their own hearts. They pass it to him every time. And it's something that still to this day touches me deeply.

Eric Price: 12:08

That is very cool.

Erich Bolz: 12:10

Well, well, coach, as you know, and appreciate the research that you've done on us. And we did quite a bit of research on you as well. This This podcast was really born out of out of a public good study that we did on outliers, positive outliers, schools in the state of Washington. And we have 11 common conditions. And we look for guests that really exemplify those common conditions, one of those inside of readiness to benefit is developing a strong culture on the premise that all students are our students. And you know, the JMac story is just a beautiful extension of that. So you've touched on it, but tell us, Otto we benefit when we include others. And what were some of those incredible unintended benefits of, of just your style of service?

Coach Jim Johnson: 12:50

Well, I think the one thing you know, you preach like our mission state for more our program was to develop winners on and off the court. And so we really wanted to build the complete person not just as a basketball player. And, you know, the beauty of Jason, you know, to give you an idea how much he was in the team, I'll share two side things were pretty amazing. You know, after that season, because he had first of all after that game about three days later, I and I thought I did it for all the right reasons. We had no media there. But actually, Jason speech pathologist that I didn't know very well, he came this first game we ever gone to. He called one of the local TV stations the next day and said you got to borrow but it was a VHS tape. Yeah. And they showed it and it got so within three days, we had ESPN call it ABC News. I mean, it was just crazy. But the amazing thing was is that now Jason's getting this publicity all over the world. And between him and I, we were on all kinds of shows and stuff. But he he had to go back his team manager, he knew that upfront yet. When people interview him after the season, because we went out and won our first section five championship that year, is people would ask them what was the best thing about your senior year leading them into you know, they want to hear about his game, right? And he would say when he won section five championship, of course. So you know, that's what kind of team player he was. And I think if you could get people all believing in a common cause. And then recognizing that I think is really powerful because culture is built day in and day out. And I think it's the huge thing is getting clarity of the mission clear clarity, the values, and then I think something we forget a lot, and I got a lot better at that. Second half of my career is remember, you're the person that starts that you lead by example. And if you're not embracing and living their culture day in and day out, believe me your team members won't either.

Erich Bolz: 14:50

Well, we are an absolute culture first company Coach Johnson so that really resonated with me and really interested in you know, when you extend an opportunity and includes Somebody like Jason, talk about how the benefits come back to you, the team, the school, how that's changed your life, because I think we often don't think about that impact coming back to us when we do something unique and extend that inclusivity to others.

Coach Jim Johnson: 15:13

Well, you know, what I think is something I've learned in life is, is when you do things consistently, for the right reasons, I think things tend to come back much better. I mean, not in my wildest dreams, would I ever thought I'd write a book, you know, speak all over the country and inspiration and leadership and teamwork and all that. So it's been a real privilege. Hopefully someday, right now, we don't have a movie. But we did want to have one at one time, but we're hoping because it to me, it's such a great story. I think I'd love to see some how we can get it back. So we can have a movie on it someday. But the greatest lesson is you hear it in sometimes you don't believe it's true. But I think there's a lot of truth to that is the more you give, the more you get. Okay,

Eric Price: 16:00

we're gonna take a quick timeout here for a word from our sponsors, but don't give up your seat in the bleachers because we've got a lot more from Coach Johnson, right here on outliers and education.

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Eric Price: 17:15

Welcome back, everybody. We're checking back into the game with Coach Jim Johnson. So Coach going back to that piece like my last post in public education, I was at a K six school and we were kind of the magnet for all the autistic kids in the district. So my heartstrings also when I'm reading, you know, watching that I'm I'm tearing up to So J Mac comes on the court, his first three is a brick, right? And, and then and now you're like holy smoke, I got an autistic kid, you know, all these things are built up, he throws a brick, what are you thinking as a leader? And you said you had this kind of evolution as a leader? How did you see your evolution as a leader there in that place? Like nomina? Believe in Him? I'm going to keep going. How do you see that?

Coach Jim Johnson: 17:57

I think the biggest thing is staying with that belief through adversity, because, you know, I couldn't have probably thought of a worse way for him to start the game. This is first shot by about six feet. But you know what I mean, it really came back to I wanted to do something nice for him because he had done so many nice things for our program. It I knew that you know what? Because one of the things we preached all the time, and he really was a great example of is, is next play because basketball is a fast game. Yeah. So you know, you miss a shot. You can't be worried Vic I used to we called it a double negative. So, you know, the famous one is the guy misses a wide open layup, okay. And there's no one more bearish than the kid that missed that wide open layup. But then, of sometimes it would take the kid out. And most of the time I would. And you know, for the common people in the stands, they Oh, they took them out because he missed it, ya know, I took them out. And he knew exactly why because he didn't run back on defense. And that's, that's what we call the double negative, you know, we understand human error and you miss a shot. But that doesn't mean you run back. And that was the thing with Jason, he just shrugged it off. Okay, I missed a shot, you know. And so it's you just got to stick with them. And I think that's by growing relationships, you build that belief.

Eric Price: 19:17

And I think you also build that trust to with that person when they have a brick because I don't know how many times that we could find similarities in leadership when those folks underneath us throw a brick and we move away from him. And that is a great learning opportunity for him right? Like now they can actually become better with that trust in the relationship of I didn't go away from you. I didn't bench you. I'm like, I believe in Yeah. So I see that in your culture perspective as well. Do you see that with the people in your leadership?

Coach Jim Johnson: 19:47

Yeah, you really struck a good chord there EP with the fact that because in my career, I took over four basketball programs. The first one was an absolute disaster. We won one game And they told me after the season, we don't want you back. So that was a good way to start your varsity career. But then I ended up taking over three other programs. In fact, two high schools in my hometown that had been losing. And were able to turn around one of the things that I appease people asked me, you know, these two questions all the time, how do you get to the top? And this is a process that I talk about leadership. And then number two is the harder question, how do you stay at the top because one of the things obviously, the J Mac game was my most proudest moment in coaching Byron on. But if you'd asked me what was another problem, and is the fact that consistency, we actually made 14 Straight sectional, Final Fours. And in my last 11 years, we made the finals eight times one, six. So that was something because how do you stay at the top? And one of the things you brought up, that's so essential, one of my leadership keys is building trust. And what I really pushed leaders on, do you have a plan to build trust? Because every ill there's not anyone when I do a presentation, you'll ask How many think it's important to have trust in your team and everybody has their it's something that is absolutely necessary. But one of the things that I did after my exists or my first one is when I took over a new program with my staff, I would share our three ideas on how we wanted to build trust.

Erich Bolz: 21:25

Coach, a couple of follow up questions for you, and and kind of dealer's choice, but we'd like you to cover both ground, doing some research listening specifically to your episode on Darren Pepperidge Podcast, episode 10, I was really struck by two things. One, I completely believe that the separations and the preparation and you are clearly a student of basketball, and never got so egotistical that you stopped learning. So you know, love to talk about the impact and how you transmit that to others. The other thing I'd love to hear is, you know, you are into distributed leadership as a basketball coach, before leadership was cool. You talked on that podcast about a situation where the team was not together, you couldn't bring them together. So you finally brought them together and said, I'm at a loss. And I think when we kind of pulled the best solutions from the people in the room, we all win. But I can tell you in 1985, my basketball coaches in high school didn't work that way. So I'm interested in how did you become ahead of your time in that regard? So expound on those two things, if you would,

Coach Jim Johnson: 22:21

is the first thing you talked about a little bit about, you know, how do you stay at the top? I think that starts with the leader. You know, I have another presentation I do called the 10 questions, all effective leaders, and it's all about should be able to answer it's all about personal leadership. And one of the questions is, do you have a personal growth plan, because I think you got to be intentional, if you're going to get better. In this second half of my career, especially in now, I still am an avid reader, I listened to a lot of podcasts. Now, back then, of course, I didn't, I was an audio program junkie, I mean, Zig Ziglar, and Jim Rohn. And, and Tony Robbins, and all those, I always had those in my car, because back then it was a cassette tape now. But, you know, I just, you know, I think a huge thing it'd be an effective leader is you got to be curious, and, you know, the world changes so fast. So you got to continue to learn, and then answer your second piece. And again, this is something early on, because I, you know, I started coaching in 1981. So, you know, back then it was kind of their command style, you know, you know, quote, you listen to the coach, you do what he says,

Eric Price: 23:29

we are very familiar with that.

Coach Jim Johnson: 23:33

So you don't know what I'm talking about, is, so as I started to study and learn, and then try to use my own personality, I want to be someone that build people, you know, and not tear them down. And, and so like, one of the things we talked about in building trust, is that we want to do more of catching people doing right than catching what the rock because we often get caught up in education, unfortunately, is an area that happens a lot is, you know, the red marks on the paper, right? So we're, you know, we're constantly trying to figure out how we can catch people doing wrong, and really what it's all about is catching and reinforcing the right things. And I'm not saying that you're blind. I mean, certainly we were correcting our players when they made mistakes and that kind of thing. But you're gonna get more of the things that you praise and only praise because praise specifically, do you want me to share their quick story ballsy about the team thing?

Erich Bolz: 24:28

I'm enraptured with everything you're saying, I think, to our listeners, if you didn't,

Coach Jim Johnson: 24:34

so this he goes back to the GMAC season. So as I mentioned, we had a really a lot of internal strife and the team was divided. We had very good team, but because we were divided, we had lost three out of five games, and we shouldn't lost any of them. And it was all because we just worked together. And so we went to this Christmas tournament, and the team that hosted it was the biggest school in Rochester and they were very good that year. And the reason I wanted to go The tournament is because we were supposed to be very good. But the way we're playing, we're in trouble. In the opening round, we won in a very close game that we played off of the team we played wasn't very good. In the team, this Fairport, the team, that was the whole school in the next game, they won by 40 points in the team. They had been we had beaten two weeks earlier in double overtime. So because it was during Christmas break? Well, normally we do on days, a game that we don't have school is we do in our practice, we call it a shoot around. And normally at a shoot around, we bring the kids in, we bring out some balls, we do some shooting, we go over some plays, you know, review, kind of get the game plan for the date. But I knew I'd do something different because we weren't together. So I didn't bring out a basketballs. And the kids walked in and go, coach, where's the basketballs? We're not, we're not using basketballs today. So I brought them all over in the bleachers. And I looked him dead in the eyes. And I shocked them. I said, guys, I don't want to go the game tonight. They looked at me like what do you mean, there's a coach, you gotta go the game. I said, Well, unless we decide we're gonna be together. We're gonna lose by 50 points the Fairport tonight because we just can't be like this. And the best thing I did, what bowls he was referring to is, as I started doing a much better job that year, and a few years before about listening my players I said, guys, and I think one of the things you hear a lot about, but this wouldn't be example I came out with and I was vulnerable. I said, I don't have the answers right now. I said, You guys need to share some ideas and how we can unite this team.

Eric Price: 26:37

How did your kids respond to that? Because that was not the style, like as being coached? And I'm sure bowls, and we were not like that our coaches, how did your kids respond? So it was quiet.

Coach Jim Johnson: 26:47

And one of the things I learned is you wait it out? And I said, so I just we probably waited about 3045 seconds, which something

Eric Price: 26:56

like an hour. Exactly. And so

Coach Jim Johnson: 26:59

then finally somebody said, Well, we got to do this. And I said, that's a good cert, who else got an idea. And we ended up talking the whole hour, never brought a basketball never went over a play, never did any shooting. And that night, we played even though we didn't win the game, we lost his Fairport team and double overtime. And it just showed what we could do and that it really turned our season around our kids started to realize this is what we got to do when we went on a winning streak and which led us into the GMAT game. And then eventually winner sectional tournament.

Eric Price: 27:32

Coach Johnson, I'm hearing things like trust, listen, culture, I mean, these are things that are at the core of what we believe as well, when we're looking at schools that might not or shouldn't perform, you know, and, and are. So if you could look at your experience in education, with all of this thinking that you've got, we've got some principals superintendents are listening, what would you say to say, hey, here's what you need to do to have a winning team, what would you say to them? Well, I

Coach Jim Johnson: 28:04

do think it does start with you as the leader. So you, as a leader have got to own it first, only first. So you got to have the accountability, you got to be willing, number one, to start to develop a vision with getting input from your staff and your players. Number two is you got to model the behaviors your expect day in and day out, like one of our core values was respect all people. So if, if I'm not if I'm disrespectful, and I wasn't perfect, once in a while, I would say a few words to official just, of course, just just to just to try to help them out. But you know, the one thing that I really learned is, the more that I can model the appropriate behaviors day in and day out, is so hugely important. And then again, going back and recognizing and making people feel appreciated. Like we did some things that are think a little bit different. I mean, as simple as they were, like every single kid in my basketball program, I had five teams in my basketball program, two middle school, three high school, every single kid got a personalized birthday card for me. And so those are things that are recognizing, you know, you've talked about how do you become student athletes? Well, you better praise them when they do well. So when grades came out, we always posted every kid that made eye roll high on a roll, you know, any of those things that was posted on our bulletin board. It was brought up in our team meeting after grades were out.

Eric Price: 29:32

So very different than high score, or Moses said, Wow, that's impressive.

Coach Jim Johnson: 29:37

Now we had a really nice banquet at the end of the year, we recognize a lot of different things. But during this season, we only recognize a few things. For example, in basketball, one of the things hard to get kids to do, especially in high school is to take a defensive charge because it's painful, right? But we praised it, but that was one of the few things that we gave tangible recommendation if they drew a charge in prayer had to serve game they would receive a Gatorade. Like most of the things, yes, we had verbal praise, and we were those kinds of things. And, you know, like, I would send kids notes to recognize them for different things. But at the same time, things that that are a little bit harder that are out of the ordinary, you got to make sure you really go a little bit above and behind and recognizing them. And then I think the other thing though, just reinforced, is building culture is getting clarity of what the expectations are in living that day in and day out. And a thing I learned is effective leaders are the CROs, of course what is that? They're the chief reminding officers, you have to continue to share the mission and the values every single day. And if you don't, because there should be clarity, you know, what are our most you know, what is our mission? We're gonna develop winners off the core, what are our most important values being a great team member was one being respectful to all okay, you know, those are things we were looking for.

Eric Price: 31:05

Well, Coach Holy smokes, this could go on for a couple of hours, but this is the time now that we ship into bowls bowls is our summation samurai and he's gonna tell us hey, this is this is what goes on at Bose what he got for us why

Erich Bolz: 31:19

I think you might have stopped me cold with summation samurai oh, we're

Eric Price: 31:23

kind of alliteration more. Yeah. Wow.

Erich Bolz: 31:25

Well, like you said, EP, I have a ton here. And as I'm thinking about our podcast, and start to think about all these beautiful themes and categories that that really map to leadership map to the components of our outliers study, I've been kind of thinking about the categories. I don't know where we put this one because it maps to just about darn near me. I know, very beginning about the first thing I heard was in the GMAC story, just the acknowledgement of the power, perseverance. And I mean, what a great story. Four years of commitment. Here's a kid who gave more than he got. And you know, the first example of when you give more than you get, yeah, you know, when you're when an SP, right. The first example I just love to give first, love the viral VHS tape back in the day. 2006. Right. So the VHS tape that takes you to ESPN. And worldwide, when we give more than we get exponential things happen. Coach is a national authority and leadership. He's written the book, multiple TV appearances, all things I'm sure as a high school basketball coach, and I'm going to talk about this a little bit more on the summary. Because this really resonates with me, I'm the son of a high school basketball coach. And so this, this whole episodes really pulled at my heartstrings a little bit. I think most high school basketball coaches don't think that I'm going to parlay my high school basketball coaching career into into national, if not worldwide fame on that on the leadership platform. So another beautiful example of when you give you get things back, I love the next play and the double negative that you know, in this life, we make mistakes, we fail forward, we don't fail over and over again the same way. So leaning right into culture, and relationships are everything, which is everything we believe at the Center for educational effectiveness. That's what we measure inside of our survey work. And if you think about Jim Collins and the hedgehog concept, we are the best in the world at measuring culture inside of our organization. It's absolutely what we believe. How do you stay on top? You know, how do we sustain excellence, you build trust, and to me that was just a real overt through line that absolutely has to be called out. It also calls out three of our other podcast episodes. Craig Randall, his trust base, we're on episode 17. That's completely talking about school culture in Episode 12. And Chuck Salina and Suzanne Gertz and their entire framework revolving around relational trust. And in Episode 10, I mean, all absolutely related to what Coach said today. So apparently, there's a body of evidence emerging that suggests that this is absolutely the right way. Do you have a growth plan? I think, you know, how I ended up around 230 pounds is for lack. And so my my one word this year is transform. So if I'm going to transform my body, I have to I have to redouble on that plan. I do a great job with the exercises, the eating that gets in the way. We build people up, we don't tear him down. We're gonna sustain excellence. We kept people doing things right. And again, that really resonated with me with the trauma informed work that we've seen Jim sport leaders episode on on chapter nine. If you haven't seen Jim's documentary, film, Paper Tigers, it's every bit as inspirational as what Coach Johnson and Jay Mac are doing. Corey Callahan talks about it in Episode Seven. And Greg Benner, of course talks about it in episode six. So he hit on a lot of those things. I love the idea and the protocol I use, I call it why what but the idea that we find out why things aren't working, why are we not playing together as a team? And then what are we going to do about it pulling those solutions from the people in the room is the most effective form of leadership. And Coach Johnson was a little bit Michael J. Fox, maybe back in the day because he was operating in the future. That's not how it works in the 80s is we can all attest. And again, that's that's just another way of taking data to action. We've got antidotal data that we're not playing well. So how do we convert that to action? Well, we asked we asked the kids what can they do? They come up with solutions. You want a basketball game so great. metaphor for improvement just in general, the solutions in the room, the leader, the leader has to model what they want. They're the chief reminder officer, and I want to give a shout out to my dad who's 75 year old retired superintendent, principal teacher, 11 years of basketball coaching and in his teaching experience as well. And what my dad would say about leadership is it's really about doing whatever needed to ensure their post success. So want to give a shout out to my dad who's still with us. It's 75 years old, I know this episode's gonna resonate with him and just hearing you tugged on my heartstrings coach, I could keep summarizing but Holy smokes. The last thing I want to say is he even gets into pedagogy and talks about personalized acknowledgement specific praise and, and John Hattie, somewhere down in Melbourne, Australia is just smiling. Thanks for getting educational research in there as well. You are an absolutely phenomenal guest and wonderful person to speak with. And it was just at our absolute honor privilege to have you on the show.

Eric Price: 35:57

Coach, I gotta I gotta say this You you function like a perfect plant. Like you talked about everything seriously, like everything that we have been muddling around in research and our experience. Holy smokes, you just highlighted it. So you know from the listening, a modeling the chief reminder officer, that trust in the relationship. Nice plant job coach. So thank you for being on the show with us today.

Coach Jim Johnson: 36:24

My pleasure. It's great to great to be my website is coach Jim jetson.com. That way I wouldn't forget it. I have a bunch of different free things. I have a YouTube channel that I share a lot of different information. I have a weekly blog and also a monthly newsletter. And certainly I if I can ever make an impact. I do a lot of work with schools and and businesses and that type of thing that can help with your culture leadership. Actually, lastly, I just started a new presentation. You brought it up. I call it who's your J Mac. It's about inclusion. Awesome.

Eric Price: 37:00

Coach. Thanks again. I think that to summarize this, you'd have to go back and listen to it again. But thank you so much for your words of wisdom for us as leaders, and and the way that we can serve those that we lead, I think is something that I think we missed today in in the way in which we are doing leadership I think is moving back towards the 80s Unfortunately and the do as I say so, again, if you want that coach Jim johnson.com to get it coach his stuff, coach. Thanks again. My pleasure.

Erich Bolz: 37:30

Thanks to all of you for joining us today on outliers and education. You can find this episode and more anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast, or visit us online@effectiveness.org. Until next time, this has been outliers in education.

AD VO: 37:48

If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need to help drive positive change in your school or district. Take a moment to visit CEE the Center for Educational effectiveness@effectiveness.org Better data better decisions, better schools effectiveness.org